>Can we please stop pretending that some kind of nice rational discussion can be a solution to anything here?

So what alternative means do you propose? Details, times, and locations would be appreciated.

I propose to stop creating that fiction. These people lie with harmful intent and giving them forever infinite benefit of the doubt is wrong. Or euphemism around instead of saying what goes on.

So at first, stop excusing them and stop helping them.

Stop telling us "listen to them". We did, you are the one who is not listening to them. Those who listened correctly predicted a whole bunch of things and were called paranoid by enablers.

>These people lie with harmful intent and giving them forever infinite benefit of the doubt is wrong. >stop excusing them and stop helping them.

I 100% agree, though I wish this doubt and non-excuse would be applied unilaterally over all political parties, bureaucracies, and NGO. Trusting someone merely because what they said makes butterflies bubble in our spleen, or worse; Trusting them because of the letter in parentheses appended to their name (R/D), is what got us to this point.

Actions count, and in the case of politics, that means what the laws DO -the actual application and implementation, which is usually entirely glossed over by most voters, and just blamed on the other guy.

Don't listen to politicians; They are paid to lie. Listen to your fellow citizens, who are like you forced to deal with this mess, and are pitted against each other by liars and thieves.

Your fellow citizens are liars too, and refuse to take responsability for their choices and actions - such as who they voted for.

>Those who listened correctly predicted a whole bunch of things and were called paranoid by enablers.

was being called paranoid not also predictable?