> .NET has been faster than Java on most of the benchmarkgame benchmarks for a while, since .net core 3 or so.
And which benchmarks games are those? If I go to to the Techempower benchmark and select only C# + Java. Java comes on top in every individual category of all the benchmarks.
I'm not claiming that Java is faster than .NET. Just that I don't believe one platform is significantly faster than the other.
Such programs are often specially and painstakingly constructed to avoid all the commonly used language features that are inefficient. For example, in Java, user-defined data types are heap allocated and generic code boxes everything, even primitive types (an ArrayList of ints becomes unfortuately an array of pointers).
Are these programs benchmarking typical idiomatic Java, or just some subset of the language?
I agree. That's really not usefull comparision. They should create categories for each benchmark, like:
- very naive code (shortest, most readable & easy to write code)
- idiomatic code
- optimized code without other-language-libs wrappers and without SIMD, single threaded
- optimized code without other-language-libs wrappers and without SIMD, multi-threaded
- optimized code without other-language-libs wrappers and with SIMD and/or multi-threaded
- optimized code with other-language-libs wrappers allowed and any other optimization technique
I agree it's not a useful comparison. That's why I don't give much weight to statements such as "Java comes on top in every individual category of all the benchmarks".
If you're also separately benchmarking the same C library running on its own, then it's quite interesting to benchmark a .NET wrapper around the exact same library, as it allows you to estimate the overhead from the .NET runtime itself as separated from user code (ideally you'd try this with a bunch of different C libraries).
Of course, the program should be very very clearly labelled accordingly. Since it was just labeled as "csharpcore", then I am inclined to think the submitter was treating the benchmark as a competition.
Please show the objective rules that could be used to identify "typical idiomatic Java" and "typical idiomatic C#".
Please show the objective rules to direct how comparison should be done when one languages "typical idiomatic" is not the same as some other languages "typical idiomatic" — to avoid you can write Java in any language.
There's some low hanging fruit, like not permitting specialized collections in Java for a set of integers. Because of type erasure these are all heap allocated in Java but not in .NET.
I think there's value in benchmarks showing both the fastest you can go if you need to (specializing everything to eke out max performance), and benchmarks showing how fast you will typically go if optimizing for productivity.
You could probably constrain it sufficiently for some set of problems. Maybe something like: Solve problem X using the standard library associative map by elaborating the following pseudo code.
Yes any benchmark will be invalid for some people, such is life. If you want to claim or know something specific you will have to so your own painstaking investigation or find someone who has done that work.
benchmarkgame does not attempt to compare idiomatic solutions for languages, it is closer to a “what is the best you can do” benchmark
> It is closer to a “what is the best you can do” benchmark
As I suspected. So of course this tells us very little about how fast idiomatic code is relative to other languages. "The best I can do" is to invoke hand optimised assembly language, but rarely is that the right choice.
A much more useful test would involve benchmarking some similar real world apps that solve the same problem.
Please show the objective rules that could be used to identify "idiomatic Java" and "idiomatic C#".
Please show the objective rules to direct how comparison should be done when one languages "idiomatic" is not the same as some other languages "idiomatic" — to avoid you can write Java in any language.
You're looking at pretty old results, round 18 was in 2019. I also don't think that boutique web frameworks say much about the strength of the underlying language or runtime (e.g. look at just.js).
What in the Java world is in the same maturity tier as ASP.NET is open to opinion, but at least local Java devs seem to consider Spring or Micronaut as sane defaults, and of course modern ASP.NET runs circles around those.
Java's performance hasn't really mattered since Oracle took it over. There are things MUCH worse than poor performance, and being owned by Oracle is one of them.
OpenJDK has the same goddamn license as the linux kernel. It is (yes, the open source codebase) developed by Oracle 98+% alone, and other vendors are just forks of this code base (including oracle jdk, which contains only trivial changes AND a paid support option, for those that need it)
You can hate Oracle as much as you want but their Java division is a surprisingly adapt and capable team, doing very great job at stewarding the language.
IMO that link makes .NET look very good. Aspcore, the straight off the shelf, obvious choice, is the best performing .net server? It beats Jetty and Spring but loses to a long tail of less popular frameworks
That seems a bit misleading of a comparison IMO and only one case (JSON serialisation) when I look at their data. You are also linking to a round from two years ago which is out of date. It's also showing a lot of frameworks that are not that mature and not well used in the Java camp vs ASP.NET that is widely used, full featured, has a lot of bells and whistles and a lot of plugins available for most technologies and standards. All of which could have negatively influenced performance, even the hooks to allow them to be injected in can do so even if not enabled. The fact that a full featured web framework makes it close to the top (sometimes the top) over several rounds over many of their categories of use cases I can't discount as pretty good.
i.e. Its hard to read benchmarks without context of each framework shown, the compromises they have taken, how usable it actually is for building software vs just a benchmark, what shortcuts are done in the benchmark, how idiomatic is the code, etc.
My personal experience having worked on both platforms for several years is that Java is easier to get to an acceptable performance, but the .NET runtime when you have to put the effort in has a higher upper bound of performance. It just has more tools in the CLR to work with than the JVM (e.g. value types, proper generics, spans, and more) so you can express something with a little more mechanical sympathy. Java is left with some decisions from legacy IMO that by default hurt its performance (i.e. lots of default boxing has hurt me before especially with generics). With .NET Core and future versions I think .NET is also taking up Java's default perf area as well. YMMV but if I'm worried about performance being a risk in my project .NET gives me more tools to optimize it IMO should that risk eventuate.
well the same for techemporer benchmarks.
sorry but some of that stuff is as shady as the benchmarksgame. I really don't get it, why people don't create 100% benchmarks instead of specialized ones.
>> Other readers may have a broader range of skills
Relax.
When comparing anything, the comparison has to be fair. This is obviously not the case here. It's like Java is a Ford Mustang from the dealer and C# is a Camaro with a F1 engine installed.
While I'm not super familiar with the Java world, none of the frameworks that have a significant advantage sound familiar to me - I'm not sure how mature are they, whereas Asp.NET is the solution for writing servers under .NET.
And which benchmarks games are those? If I go to to the Techempower benchmark and select only C# + Java. Java comes on top in every individual category of all the benchmarks.
I'm not claiming that Java is faster than .NET. Just that I don't believe one platform is significantly faster than the other.
[1] https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r18&hw=...