The pay rates for tradies in Australia is phenomenal. If I had kids, I'd be encouraging them to become electricians, not software engineers.
Even a lot of unskilled jobs pay really well in Australia. I have a friend who works for Aldi in their distribution centre as a general worker, and he's on $35 per hour (only 6 hour shifts though, I think), plus when he's rostered on Sunday he goes up to $70 an hour.
Anecdotally, as a software developer in Melbourne for a small company, with 2 years experience, I'm on AU$75k + super, which is a pretty comfortable wage. Coming from NZ$42k (and only 3% super) back in New Zealand, it was certainly a nice payrise.
Likewise, living in Melbourne Australia, I dropped out of school after year 11, tried an mechanical apprenticeship for a year but didn't like it so I started freelancing (Javascript) in 2013.
2013 $20k (freelance) 100+ clients
2014 $75k (salary + super) 100+ employees
2015 $70k (salary + super) ~50 employees
2016 $120k (freelance) 8 clients
2017 $70k (salary + super) 3 employees
2018 $90k (salary + super) ~15 employees
2016 was by far my best year, still living at home (with parents) and after tax almost all of it went into savings.
At this stage I plan negotiating for $120k after christmas which I think is inline with my peers.
And for those talking about $4 coffee's, most places I know give discount if you BYO cup!
Oz has a fairly hard and low dev salary ceiling for smaller companies, excepting maybe some Melbourne hotspots. If you want decent scratch you have to go corporate, but the content often sucks.
I think the reason for that is American tech companies simply make a lot more money. They have a bigger market to server and USA first makes it easier to conquer the rest of the world, but Australia first normally ends up sandboxed in Australia, with some exceptions. The companies selling internationally will tend to pay more, as well as the cartels e.g. the banks, super, etc.
I always get called elitist/out-of-touch when I point this out, but it's really true that most people working in trades do $50k with mediocre benefits.
Everyone always lashes out at this with anecdata, but both the hard data from Labor and the 15+ datapoints I have personally all seem to agree that $60k is "really good", and that's with overtime. Statistically, for every wealthy plumber/small business owner pulling down 100k+, there are a lot of folks pulling down $50k or less working for the man.
Other downsides: The trades are extremely sensitive to certain types of recessions. And most trades are hard on your body. Plumber is actually one of the better trades from that perspective. Even stuff like welding and machining, which outsides think of as less hard on your body, are usually brutal. If the setup was such that they don't need you carrying stuff, going up and down stairs, etc. all day -- ie. if you could just stand in one place and weld/cnc without doing back-breaking labor -- then they'd have automated the work already.
This might all be specific to the two labor markets I know most well, but... sigh for smart kids, going to college for an in-demand STEM degree is still a great life choice and probably much higher ROI than a trade. And saying so isn't elitist.
Driving truck also seems to do better over the past two decades than most trades. Still sensitive to recessions, but much less so. None of my trucker relatives/friends have had bouts of unemployment since 2008, but all the construction and manufacturing trades have been in and out of work pretty much continually since 2009 (maybe things got better around late 2015)
If college isn't for your kids, have them also consider healthcare. Might be more stable during recessions and less hard on their body. The only downside is that there are fewer options for entrepreneurial endeavors than in the trades. Also, outside of large cities, there's only one or two dominant employers and that holds down wages. But the same is true in tech and trades.
I have found the HN crowed has a rosey view on trade jobs that doesn't seem to reflect reality. Family members of mine are employed primarily by trades (lots of plumbers, some carpenters and electrician's) and a lot of what you say is spot on. There are certainly cases where they can make a lot of money, but it's definitely not easy not a golden ticket that I see a lot of HN comments make it out to be.
In Australia which this reply chain is about trades get paid exceptionally well if you have a successful business operation (not working for someone else). There's simply an oversupply of university graduates and a very liberal visa program for IT workers. Most tradies here have their own business so any income figures are highly misleading. As an example he may earn 65k on his tax retrun but his wife does the "accounts" (65k goes there too) + the cash jobs that they don't declare on tax. A good tradie can earn 150k easy and pay less tax than the average office worker due to clever business accounting. And there's always work; and none of those "horror" stories you hear about software interviews here on HN and other sites.
My comment was specific to the USA and maybe even certain parts of the USA.
> Most tradies here have their own business
Maybe this really is true in Australia. IDK. People say this a lot in the USA, but both statistics and personal anecdata indicate it's complete bullshit. Starting a business is hard. Getting the money to start up is hard. Handling cash flow is hard. Handling everything from deadbeat clients to litigious clients is hard.
> + the cash jobs that they don't declare on tax.
Software engineers can also make $$$ by committing tax fraud and other crimes.
It's not criminal per se. It's all in the law - they just aren't perks available to the typical employee. The cash jobs are but they're in a business where they can get this; a typical engineer can't ask to be paid in cash from a large corporate client even if they are freelance. In Australia it isn't that hard - people often can't get tradies here and as a tradie you are spoilt with calls for work. I personally know some pretty rude tradies that constantly get work anyway despite doing bad work. Getting a tradie to travel more than 5km to do work around my house depending on the trade is hard; they have enough work within a 5 K radius not to bother. They can charge what they like and typically do. Especially for the top end of town.
<<I have a friend who works for Aldi in their distribution centre as a general worker, and he's on $35 per hour (only 6 hour shifts though, I think), plus when he's rostered on Sunday he goes up to $70 an hour.
And developers can certainly make over 100/hr, but in my experience that would mean contracting/consulting as a specialist with at least 5 years experience in a given technology.
(in melbourne) $4 a coffee for fancy cafes in expensive parts of town. $0 a coffee if you dont care and are happy to swig whatever is free at work.
can certainly hit $aud 100 / hour and upwards for full-time contract gigs with bigcos (banks, finance, telcos). can hit that with less than 5 years experience.
if the client knows what they're doing they may also assess for ability, not just years experience. but at least some big clients don't know what they're doing and are overrun with whatever resources of varying ability bodyshops manage to palm off onto their projects.
Private companies are probably more likely to account for actual experience. I've mostly dealt with government contracting where 5 years seemed to be the magic threshold.
Even a lot of unskilled jobs pay really well in Australia. I have a friend who works for Aldi in their distribution centre as a general worker, and he's on $35 per hour (only 6 hour shifts though, I think), plus when he's rostered on Sunday he goes up to $70 an hour.
Anecdotally, as a software developer in Melbourne for a small company, with 2 years experience, I'm on AU$75k + super, which is a pretty comfortable wage. Coming from NZ$42k (and only 3% super) back in New Zealand, it was certainly a nice payrise.