This category of complaint is useless until it is unfolded to contain better economic reasoning.
In the case of a VC-subsidized service like Uber, the subsidization is utilized by the company until a a monopolistic or network effect takes hold and allows for price increases.
LLM economics are very different. If the tokens are being subsidized now, they must stay subsidized until some form of monopoly, network effect, or pure R&D advantage is achieved.
In the case of LLMs, the open weight models are nipping at the heels of the proprietary models, and this may be a fundamental condition. Perhaps subsidizing tokens enhances increases engagement, and thus, equity value of the company training the proprietary models, and they reinvest this value back into the energy costs needed to train them. Perhaps this dynamic gives proprietary models the performance distance they need in order to increase their margins.
Hasn't happened yet. It's not clear that it will happen.
Next time I read this take, I want to see eight to ten more paragraphs of analysis before it feels like a contribution to the discourse.
That's too much margin. They're trading net profits for user happiness and it's hurting their brand more than they understand. The app store cartel must fall.
What evidence is there that it's hurting their brand?
Outside of HN I see zero complaints. And the situation has been going on for a while. I might not like it, but it seems perfectly fine for their brand as far as I can tell.
I see a lot of complaints outside of HN. For starters, not every nerd, and not even every Apple nerd, is on HN. Outside of that, even my non-tech-savvy acquaintances have been complaining as of late.
Is it enough of a damaged brand to hurt their profits as of now? Clearly not. But cracks are forming. Apple’s brand isn’t damaged when they’re seen as bad, but when they’re seen as the same as everyone else.
> Outside of that, even my non-tech-savvy acquaintances have been complaining as of late.
What do they say? I'm genuinely curious.
Because e.g. I don't have the slightest idea what percentage Microsoft takes on Xbox games, nor would it ever occur to me to complain about it. I know there's a business model there, but it's not something I think about. And I feel like that's the way people outside of tech feel about whatever percentage Apple takes out of its App Store. But what am I missing?
The important bit is “trading net profits for user happiness”. Non-tech-savvy users aren’t complaining about Apple’s margins for apps, but about the things Apple is doing to degrade their experience in the name of profit. Namely excessive ads on the App Store, on System Settings, and on Apple Apps themselves such as Music and Wallet (F1).
No, it’s not. I have just told you it’s not. Which is anecdotal, but also true. Do you not frequent other websites with nerds other than HN?
> I have plenty of friends who are not on HN and I haven’t heard anyone ever complain about these things.
Is your personal experience the only valid one? Are your friends the epitome of diversity of opinions? I don’t have any friends who are white supremacists, does that mean white supremacists don’t exist? Because I’m pretty sure they do, even in my country. All of us live in bubbles to an extent, you have simply bumped into another boundary of yours.
Do a web search for Apple Wallet F1. Do you think all those people are on HN? They’re certainly complaining outside of it.
I searched for "Apple Wallet F1" and all the search results were literally from tech review websites. One was from Apple subreddit. That just goes on to show how such discontent is largely in a small but vocal community. The everyday consumer doesn't care about these things.
Btw, I was sharing my anecdote as you had done it. I of course know my experiences are not generalizable.
The competition is limited to android and Google is sabotaging every advantage they held against Apple. Customization is lost, freedom is lost, even the smartphones prices are now similar to iPhones. Pixels sell for premium price nowadays.
imo the app store thing is very niche and only affects a small, vocal group that tends to sit on hacker news and pay attention to these things. Can almost guarantee that 95% of the iphone-having population does not know/care about the app store "issue." I do think the general decline in quality and uptick in bugs will bite them slowly, at least once there's an iphone competitor of note.
Most folks don't realize they're paying (up to) an extra 30% to Apple on everything they purchase in the app store. On top of an already exorbitant device price.
I'm sure you'd see more outrage if you had the app price listed without the fee, and then showed the fee below it/at time of purchase. It's another hidden fee.
They aren't because companies refuse to price discriminate. There are some exceptions, like Spotify where they called it out in a public space that the in app subscriptions were more than if you bought directly.
However, I have noticed that its very rare. In every other case I've looked into, from Omni apps to streaming apps like Netflix, I'm paying the same either way, and often with a more convienent way of managing the subscription.
Thereby, I think it goes undetected by most, because price comparing the app store to the non app store price will yield the same price most of the time. Though importantly, I have noticed, it is not always the same options. For example, regarding Netflix, I am paying the same price for my sub via Apple but new and returning customers can no longer pay for it this way, they must go to the website now. I also can't add additional members (effectively discounted second subs) either.
This has to do with the fact Apple did captiulate to allowing companies link to their own subscription pages and actually allow customers to be directed in that way with clearer and transparent language. However, I have noticed most apps with the exception of large streaming platforms have done away completely with in app subscriptions, and the prices are still the same whether its the web or via in app purchases on Apple's platform.
However, Google Play is no better in this regard. Even though they allow 3rd party payment processing as an alternative to using Google's payment processing, it has not lead to apps being cheaper on their platform, in the majority of cases. Which makes me wonder if the value is still there for a 1st party payment processor, or something else.
It affects everyone, because the aggressive revenue cut prevents entire categories of apps and services from being published to the app store. An app store with a 5-10% cut would be an app store with a much richer choice of apps.
> What are some examples of the categories of apps and services that aren't publishable on the App Store due to Apple's services revenue?
For example, Apple refuses to allow Peertube app onto the App Store. Peertube is a free version of Youtube with peer-to-peer file transfer acceleration.
That's because you can use it to (bring out smelling salts!) watch porn. If you connect it to a private Peertube instance.
Another example, Apple is not allowing an eBook reader app (FBReader) with full OPDS support. Because you can use OPDS to buy books in third-party stores. I'm using OPDS to get books from my own Calibre Web library, btw.
These are just the ones I can list off the top of my head. No doubt there are others.
I don’t think it’s that simple, they allow Reddit, which
Is filled to the brim with porn, and other ver ”non Apple” things.
They also allow plenty of comic book readers that open files from almost every possibly conceivable source.
Not to mention a lot of video players that can play porn of course.
Is it inconsistent and frustrating, very much so, and certain apps get an unfair treatment for sure, but I don’t think it’s as simple as that ”if app can do x then it’s banned”.
> I don’t think it’s that simple, they allow Reddit
What part of "monopolistic collusion behaivor" you do not understand? Apple likely has backroom deals with large players, while locking out smaller competitors.
After all, Grok app is still in the App Store.
> Is it inconsistent and frustrating, very much so, and certain apps get an unfair treatment for sure, but I don’t think it’s as simple as that ”if app can do x then it’s banned”.
I gave the names of actual apps, feel free to talk with their developers. Peertube got in only after removing the ability to add custom endpoints.
I'm not familiar with either of those apps, but it sounds to me like both break their terms of service. We can agree or disagree about those terms, but that seems to me to be the case here, versus Apple banning those apps due to services revenue.
I'm not sure if they are or aren't, but I don't think that is a good argument when the premise was that revenue was preventing categories of apps and services. For example, in both of these apps Apple would still be getting services revenue through in-app purchases and such. Maybe that's not enough and so they construct their terms of service accordingly, but that's still not proof one way or the other, which is why I asked the original question that I had asked.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not sure there is evidence to support your assertion either.
I haven't ever purchased a single thing in the App Store or in-app so I guess I don't care. But it does seem like a monopoly and something that should be forced to allow competition.
A device manufacturer/company that makes people who have iphones seriously consider swapping to the new company's offering. It is such a small tail of people who have an iphone and seriously consider moving to Android, with maybe Samsung being the highest quality and most attractive with Pixel also being pretty cool. I don't know what HarmonyOS is and I am pretty tech savvy. I think any company can make an ultra low spec phone and ship Android on it and get people to buy it on the basis of cost alone, but those people aren't cross-shopping iphones, so they're not a notable comparison. Arguably, with the exception of maybe high end Samsung and Pixel phones, Android phones and others are basically a whole different product category.
No. The "competition" is artificially limited to buying an Android phone, and mobility between platforms can be very complicated, not by accident, while apps like Patreon can simply be forced to comply with massive fees even if it makes their service much more expensive.
Stripe, PayPal and a bag full of other payment options would be able to compete just fine with IAP and its fees.
I like the fact that when deleting an app, it reminds you about existing subscriptions related to that app, and offers to take you to the subscriptions page to unsubscribe.
In saying that, I don't think I'm personally prepared to pay an additional 30% for that. It should just be what is expected as part of good business practice.
Among perhaps the 1% super tech savvy users. I never heard anyone who wants to sideload apps outside online (not even from other programmers I know in real life. Ones who care like much always have been using rooted android from day 1.)
I don't think the sell through of Android phones to the wealthiest has been all that high. Celebs, top business execs, even heads of nations state are most often seen with Apple devices in their hands.
I'm sure not in every case, but even as far back as 2018 the trend line of wealth and iPhone ownership was high. Even today most app store developers admit that iPhone users tend to have more disposable income by a good margin.
Really, when I do a cursory google search of wealthy public figures that include them holding their devices, what I can find is they're clearly holding iPhones most of the time.
It gives it a different implication. As I read it, an article titled "Lewis Carroll Computed Determinates" has three possible subjects:
1. Literally, Carroll would do matrix math. I know, like many on HN, that he was a mathematician. So this would be a dull and therefore unlikely subject.
2. Carroll invented determinates. This doesn't really fit the timeline of math history, so I doubt it.
3. Carroll computed determinates, and this was surprising. Maybe because we thought he was a bad mathematician, or the method had recently been invented and we don't know how he learned of it. This is slightly plausible.
4. (The actual subject). Carroll invented a method for computing determinates. A mathematician inventing a math technique makes sense, but the title doesn't. It'd be like saying "Newton and Leibnitz Used Calculus." Really burying the lede.
Of course, this could've been avoided had the article not gone with a click-bait style title. A clearer one might've been "Lewis Carroll's Method for Calculating Determinates Is Probably How You First Learned to Do It." It's long, but I'm not a pithy writer. I'm sure somebody could do better.
"How Lewis Carroll Computed Determinates" is fine and not clickbait because it provides all the pertinent information and is an accurate summary of its contents. Clickbait would be "you would never guess how this author/mathematician computed determinants" since it requires a clickthrough to know who the person is. How is perfectly fine IMO to have in the title because I personally would expect the How to be long enough to warrant a necessary clickthrough due to the otherwise required title length.
based on my understanding of what all the financial pros are saying: they'll never let that happen. they'll inflate away to the moon before they allow for a deflationary bust. that's why everyone's in equities in the first place. it's almost insured, at this point.
Unfortunately, no, not when you are dealing with user data. You don't own that and you don't deserve to be reckless with it just because you're paying for the hardware and bandwidth.
> Make a dumb thing, take your hands off the wheel, have fun
This is why we need licensing for software developers:
When you're building a service that has actual users, with actual data, and tangible consequences when it fails, "take your hands off the wheel, have fun" is fundamentally dangerous.
Or, to put it differently: It's totally fine for some kids to build a treehouse. They might even get hurt. But, when it comes to dams and bridges, there is a reason why the people who design those need to get a license.
that’s clearly not the danger. make a dumb thing that takes user input (including PII or maybe other protected data), then put it online and charge people to use it without vetting it for security? No, let’s not encourage that.
I like how every reply to you is the same, nuance doesn't exist, and we're all working on missile guidance systems and pacemaker firmware.
There's such a wide range of software. There's plenty of space for an amateur to do some creative vibe coding. What's the point of the scolding and hand wringing?
Given the fact that the post mentions an actual company with actual users that was seemingly vibe coded, I don't think anyone pointing out that this is reckless is conflating anything here. It seems like some are better than others at reading from context though, clearly.
In the case of a VC-subsidized service like Uber, the subsidization is utilized by the company until a a monopolistic or network effect takes hold and allows for price increases.
LLM economics are very different. If the tokens are being subsidized now, they must stay subsidized until some form of monopoly, network effect, or pure R&D advantage is achieved.
In the case of LLMs, the open weight models are nipping at the heels of the proprietary models, and this may be a fundamental condition. Perhaps subsidizing tokens enhances increases engagement, and thus, equity value of the company training the proprietary models, and they reinvest this value back into the energy costs needed to train them. Perhaps this dynamic gives proprietary models the performance distance they need in order to increase their margins.
Hasn't happened yet. It's not clear that it will happen.
Next time I read this take, I want to see eight to ten more paragraphs of analysis before it feels like a contribution to the discourse.
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